Episode summary
Pulitzer Prize Historian: You Won't Notice Until It’s Too Late - Anne Applebaum
The Diary of a CEO
· · 1 hr 48 min · Hosts: Steven Bartlett · Guests: Anne Applebaum
Summary
Anne Applebaum argues that democracies usually do not collapse in a sudden coup; they erode when elected leaders steadily weaken courts, elections, media, and the civil service from within. She says the United States is already showing those signs, pointing to corruption, politicized institutions, gerrymandering, and the growing use of state power for private or partisan gain.
She contrasts liberal democracy with autocracy by stressing the loss of rule of law: in an autocracy, the law becomes whatever the leader wants it to be, and businesses, judges, and citizens all adapt to that reality. Applebaum says Trump’s second term is different because he is now surrounded by people willing to help him evade constraints, while allies, firms, and foreign governments are learning to hedge against a less reliable America.
She also argues that the post-1945 order is weakening as Russia, China, and Iran challenge democratic norms and as U.S. partners prepare for a future in which America may not be a dependable security or trade anchor. Her broader warning is that once norms and institutions are broken, they may not simply return to normal.
Key takeaways
- Applebaum says the core democratic warning sign is not tanks in the street but elected leaders taking apart institutions from inside.
- She argues the U.S. is already seeing democratic decline through corruption, politicized justice, and increasingly anti-democratic election rules.
- Applebaum says Trump’s business conflicts make this period especially dangerous because policy can be shaped around his family and allies.
- She warns that foreign partners are hedging because America now looks less reliable on trade, NATO, and security guarantees.
- Applebaum says autocracies last longer historically, but democracies offer better rule of law, participation, and lower corruption when they work.
Notable quotes
“the deterioration of American democracy. I mean, it's already happening”
“in an autocracy you have rule by law. And that means that the law is what the person in power says it is”
“we've never had a president running businesses while in office”
“we're just at the beginning of what could be quite a big change”
How the episode opens
This was Trump's net worth when he went into office, $2.3 billion. And this is his net worth now, just two years later. $6.5 billion.
So, we've never had a president running businesses while in office. And so, decisions are being made not based on what's good for Americans, but what's good for his company. For example, why did the Saudi government invest $2 billion in Jared Kushner's fund?
It wasn't because they just like Jared Kushner. It was because Kushner is Trump's son-in-law. And so my biggest concern is the deterioration of American democracy.
I mean, it's already happening. Most people think democracies end with tanks in the street or somebody shooting up the presidential palace, but actually in the modern world, they mostly end because someone who is legitimately elected begins to take apart the system. Trump, he has never cared much one way or the other for American democracy.
He admires foreign leaders who have no constraints. And I have a goal that is to remind people of why democracy is important and to pay attention to the ways in which it's declining so that we can fight back. So we're just at the beginning of what could be quite a big change.
So there's five core tactics that autocratic leaders use to dismantle a democracy. Could you walk me through the five tactics? — So first of all, — This is super interesting to me. My team given me this report to show me how many of you that watch this show subscribe. And some of you have told us according to this that you are unsubscribed from the channel randomly. So favor to ask all of you please could you check right now if you've hit the subscribe button if you are a regular viewer of the show and you like what we do here.
From the episode’s captions: roughly the first two minutes, lightly cleaned. Keep watching on YouTube →
Topics
- democracy collapse
- autocracy
- corruption warning signs
- big tech political power
- us allies and betrayal
Companies and tickers mentioned
- The Atlantic
Watch the episode
Watch “Pulitzer Prize Historian: You Won't Notice Until It’s Too Late - Anne Applebaum” on YouTube
Summary, takeaways and quote selection by Octagon. Quotes are short excerpts; the full conversation is in the episode.
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